Australian Atheists Forum

BarryK, you can find the promised story in the "Who Is Irrev-Black" thread.

Irrev-Black wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 5:05 pm The Slow Break

This was originally written for a magazine on unbelief. It arrived with them shortly before the magazine stopped publishing. I have kept it around, refining it and sometimes adding bits.

I think it fits better there, and I don't want to interrupt the discussion that is going on regarding your claim.

pipbarber wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 3:59 pmThat point at the end Joele might be fruitful to pursue. If you want to extract god as first cause from a comprehension gap why is he loving? Why is he a he? Surely this god could be a complete dick? Or not give two fucks about what was caused and certainly not us.

Hi Pip, I didn’t call God a “he”, you did. Yes, “why is God loving?” is a good question”. The question of God allowing suffering is hard to answer. Perhaps we will only understand when we die and be with God in heaven. If there is no afterlife then there is no answer, of course. Some suffer much more than others, terribly.
Yes, God could be a terrible being, but if so there is a lot of beauty and love in the world that God allows. Christians believe that God cared so much about humankind messing things up that God sent Jesus Christ to help us. And Jesus Christ suffered rejection, ridicule, torture and a violent death for our sake.
Cheers Barry

pipbarber wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 3:59 pmBut you know Barry, if you hold onto your faith and it works for you then what does it matter? Provided it doesn't turn you into a judgemental fuckwit that cares more for their church and it's myths than the masses of people it has murdered, tortured, raped, brutalised, abused, oppressed, imprisoned and destroyed throughout its despicable and disgusting history.

If you're a decent caring person you can believe whatever the fuck you want as far as i'm concerned.

Hi again Pip,
I’m just getting used to using the reply function. I feel empowered……
It doesn’t seem logical to comment on my faith me turning into a “judgemental fuckwit who cares more” etc etc. Your comments about the church are extremely judgmental.

Yes, a small but significant number of Catholic clergy committed various acts of evil. And there was a scandalous coverup by some church leaders. But to ignore all the good the church has done and say it has a “despicable and disgusting history” is very unfair. The Catholic Church has a long history of helping the poor, the sick, the disadvantaged, the imprisoned, families.

As far as abuse goes, it has sadly happened in many organisations eg scouts, gymnastics, cricket, swimming, football, schools, other church organisations. But most abuse occurs in families or by family friends.
Cheers Barry

Barryk wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 12:54 pm What do you believe?

Hi Barry. It doesn't matter what I believe. I enjoy declaring baldly that I don't believe in anything. But then, what I don't believe in is also inconsequential. That's the thing about belief, individuals can believe in anything, even ridiculous things which by most measures run counter to reality. Belief itself is a kind of arrogance and self aggrandisement. Atheism is about a lack of belief. It is humble.

Barryk wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 2:24 pmTherefore there must be something that started it all, outside of time. And that is God. All powerful, all knowing.

Fort a brief moment you are all science-y and then all of a sudden WHAM! It's god.

The study of the early universe has been painstaking and methodical, there are observatories and satellites and hypotheses and computer models, and everyone is looking for evidence to support their ideas. If they are real scientists they will applaud and yield to evidence which diminishes or erases their ideas.

When you look at the basic forces of electromagnetism, gravity etc., you don't see any intelligence. Gravity and its three siblings are dumb, little more than binary. If the cosmic background radiation showed a repeated image of a bearded old white dude you might have a case.

I have never heard of “Agnostic Atheists”, I find it hard to conceive, but that doesn’t matter. Hello to all AAs. Nice to meet you,
Cheers Barry

Barryk wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 6:37 pm I have never heard of “Agnostic Atheists”, I find it hard to conceive, but that doesn’t matter.
(snip)

This may help.

Barryk wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 6:37 pm I have never heard of “Agnostic Atheists”, I find it hard to conceive, but that doesn’t matter. Hello to all AAs. Nice to meet you,
Cheers Barry

So the idea is belief and claim to knowledge are too different questions.

Theists beleive in god, atheists lack that belief.

Gnostics claim to have knowledge, agnostics do not.

Some people use the terms "strong" atheist and "weak" atheist, but that isn't very clear.

I lack beleif in any gods as i do not see enough evidence, i don't claim to have knowledge that no gods exist, so agnostic atheist.. It is a more honest position imho.

That said i am a gnsotic atheist when it comes to YHYW as i think i have enough knowledge about judaism, christianity, zoastrinaism and the cannanite pantheon (pre judaism) to not say that god/faith is rubbish.

pipbarber wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 3:25 pmActually this is wrong. We are mostly agnostic atheists here and you'll not find many of us arguing that god does not exist, god may well exist, however there is insufficient evidence to support that belief just as there is insufficient evidence to support a belief in elves. So there's no right or wrong involved from an agnostic atheist perspective.

Hi again Pip
The fact that the universe exists is evidence of God creating it. There is much evidence of Jesus Christ living, performing miracles, dying and rising from the dead. To compare God to “elves” is not convincing to me.
Cheers Barry

stylofone wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 6:26 pmHi Barry. It doesn't matter what I believe. I enjoy declaring baldly that I don't believe in anything. But then, what I don't believe in is also inconsequential. That's the thing about belief, individuals can believe in anything, even ridiculous things which by most measures run counter to reality. Belief itself is a kind of arrogance and self aggrandisement. Atheism is about a lack of belief. It is humble.

Hi Stylo
Everything you said is a “belief”. Welcome to the club.
Cheers Barry

Barryk wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:02 pmThe fact that the universe exists is evidence of God creating it.

Back to my questions regarding the "cause" of the universe, how do you know (1) the cause was even a thinking agent (2) the cause was god, let alone the christian god?

Barryk wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:02 pmThere is much evidence of Jesus Christ living, performing miracles, dying and rising from the dead.

Would love to see some of this evidence, can you present some of it, or at least describe it?