BarryK Claims God Exists

[Barryk]

Moderator Note:

We are an evidence-based community, and the name of this topic has been edited to fit the matter covered.

The discussion is also being relocated from the Introduce Yourself area to the Non Science Related part of the forum, to better reflect content.


Hi everyone, I just discovered this site. I’m a “practising” Catholic. Despite the census showing 20% of Australians identify as “Catholic”, in reality less than 10% of us actually attend Mass. which is a core practice of the Catholic Faith. For younger Catholics it’s only about 5%. We are fast heading to this figure as older Catholics die.

So 5% of 20% of Australians = 1% will soon be “practising Catholics”. We are not doing very well today.

The most basic belief of Catholicism is that God exists. The only other option is God doesn’t exist. I firmly believe in a Creator God, for scientific and rational reasons. And that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church.

I understand why people might reject the idea of God, and the Catholic Church.

What do you believe?

Cheers Barry

[Irrev-Black]

Hello, Barry.

My personal view is further down this section. I'll take the liberty of lifting a quote for you.

No atheist like an ex-believer, is there? Well, I was en route to being a pentecostal minister, so count me among the very atheist atheists.

For me, being atheist is being convinced by everything so far that gods and supernatural phenomena almost certainly don't exist.

I don't rule out the possibility of Things Beyond Our Realm: it's just that my standard of "incontrovertible proof" is mighty high.

And, no, the "proof" somebody might be about to offer isn't convincing, probably isn't new, and probably requires belief to work.

So far the universe hasn't fallen over, at least as far as I have been able to perceive.

I look forward to seeing what you have to offer.

[Barryk]

Hi IB
Great to hear from you. Wow, reverting from almost being a Pentecostal Minister to being the ultimate Atheist is a huge jump. I’ve never had a religious conversation with an Atheist before. I’ve attended some of the big evangelical churches just to study how they operate. So to start the dialogue, rather than me spouting all my beliefs, what made you change? I suppose the basic question is my topic “Does God exist”. How did you get to change your mind on that?
Cheers Barry

[Irrev-Black]

Thanks, Barry.

"Student Minister" to non-believer, thanks: I didn't have the confidence trickster mentality it would have taken to go the whole hog, and the break-point with my studies came due to a disagreement over the pentecostal music thing.

I would have had to (in my words at least) compel the holy spirit to appear among the congregation by leading the music session in a certain way.

I decided I didn't want to claim a god so puny I could boss it around, so I left ministry school.

It took a few years of other churches before I quit believing.

Look, what about you tell us some substantial things about why you think god exists, in the peculiar state of divinity you attribute to your god, and maybe some of its special properties?

If you do well, I'll put my leaving story up for all to read, today.

ADD: I'm waiting in the sidelines now till evening, as I am sure other members will want to say hello too.

[Barryk]

Either God exists or God doesn’t. Either theists are 100% right or Atheists are 100% right. It seems a bit unfair, but that’s a fact.

God therefore must exist outside of the material world and time. Many people argue that advances in science prove God doesn’t exist. I think the opposite. Science deals in material things and it always shows that everything has a cause. That nothing can be created out of nothing. The Big Bang is calculated to have happened 14 billion years ago. Something must have caused it. And so on.

Time cannot go back infinitely or we would never have reached the present.

Therefore there must be something that started it all, outside of time. And that is God. All powerful, all knowing. You mentioned “Things beyond our realm”. That’s what God is.

Some would say all loving too.

[pipbarber]

Hello Barry, thanks for the very honest assessment of how the RCC is traveling these days. It's even worse than i thought.

In response to your belief question, i don't believe in anything, if by 'belief' you mean a universal and immutable truth that spans all time and culture. Zero beliefs for me.

Just to nit pick:

Either God exists or God doesn’t. Either theists are 100% right or Atheists are 100% right. It seems a bit unfair, but that’s a fact.

Actually this is wrong. We are mostly agnostic atheists here and you'll not find many of us arguing that god does not exist, god may well exist, however there is insufficient evidence to support that belief just as there is insufficient evidence to support a belief in elves. So there's no right or wrong involved from an agnostic atheist perspective.

I note that you have advanced what will be a god of the gaps argument along with some enormous leaps of blind faith. It's a useless strategy that fails in logic every single time.

Anyway, welcome to the forum

[joele]

Hi Barry,

Either God exists or God doesn’t. Either theists are 100% right or Atheists are 100% right. It seems a bit unfair, but that’s a fact.

I would like to define what I mean by Atheist as I very much call myself one but do not fit your definition above..

Theists are making a positive claim, i.e. that a god exists, an atheists is simply saying "I don't believe you" and then often asking for some good evidence for that claim.. Most (but not all by any means) atheists I know are agnostic atheists, we do not believe in god (the atheist part) but we do not claim to know for certain that no form of what people may call 'god' exists, just that the time to believe is when it has been demonstrated.

God therefore must exist outside of the material world and time. Many people argue that advances in science prove God doesn’t exist. I think the opposite. Science deals in material things and it always shows that everything has a cause. That nothing can be created out of nothing. The Big Bang is calculated to have happened 14 billion years ago. Something must have caused it. And so on.

Well that is an interesting one, as time is relative to space, so assuming the current model is correct and there was no time before the plank time (the start of the current presentation of space/time), then "before" kind of breakdowns... By that I mean it is a funny question to ask what happened "before time began" as without time there is no "before" in the sense we often mean.

Time cannot go back infinitely or we would never have reached the present.

Well we can't comprehend it, though physicists do not always have a problem with infinite regression, at least mathematically..

Therefore there must be something that started it all, outside of time. And that is God. All powerful, all knowing. You mentioned “Things beyond our realm”. That’s what God is.

Ok, for the moment let's assume that is correct, why does it need to be a conscious being, a god? Something else could exist outside of time that isn't a conscious agent that kicked off our local presentation of the universe, quantum states/fluctuations maybe, as is posited by some theoretical physicists/cosmologists and that triggered the start of our local presentation of space/time.

Some would say all loving too.

I don't know how you get from a god of some type must exist to trigger our local presentation of space to to that god being All powerful, all knowing and all loving.

[pipbarber]

That point at the end Joele might be fruitful to pursue. If you want to extract god as first cause from a comprehension gap why is he loving? Why is he a he? Surely this god could be a complete dick? Or not give two fucks about what was caused and certainly not us.

But you know Barry, if you hold onto your faith and it works for you then what does it matter? Provided it doesn't turn you into a judgemental fuckwit that cares more for their church and it's myths than the masses of people it has murdered, tortured, raped, brutalised, abused, oppressed, imprisoned and destroyed throughout its despicable and disgusting history.

If you're a decent caring person you can believe whatever the fuck you want as far as i'm concerned.

On that note, do you believe homosexuality is morally wrong?

[Barryk]

Hi Pip and Joelle. Thanks for your comments Joelle. I'll get back to you later . And to you Pip. I'm disappointed in your comments. I thought you had to agree to not be aggressive and to be respectful to contribute on this site. I'll still answer your comments after thinking about them.
Cheers Barry

[pipbarber]

Hi Pip and Joelle. Thanks for your comments Joelle. I'll get back to you later . And to you Pip. I'm disappointed in your comments. I thought you had to agree to not be aggressive and to be respectful to contribute on this site. I'll still answer your comments after thinking about them.
Cheers Barry

I assume you are referring to my comments regarding the RCC? I can be as 'aggressive' toward it as i please, because it is not you, Barry.

Edit: i consider the catholic church to be an institution deserving of the label of pure evil. I do not consider the average catholic to be evil. I've known many thoroughly decent and lovely people who happen to be catholic and you seem quite affable and reasonable. There's a big distinction here, i hope you can see it.