Israel

[Irrev-Black]

The mod direction was a mod direction. You can say what you like, but if you are going to suddenly bring up a Fatah shooting (for example) cite your source.

This topic can get emotional enough without wannabe orators pulling wild pseudofigures out of wherever.

[wadaye]

Wannabe admins should also do their job and call out Ballshit when they see it even if from the forum owner

[joele]

So @wadaye the "bullshit" seems to be about this line?

I am more afraid of the backlash in Australia for criticising the actions of Hamas, Fatah, historically Arafat etc than I am of criticising the Israeli government..

Is that the case?

That isn't a claim to some external fact, its how "I" personally feel in my life. How do you propose I provide evidence of my personal feelings? I could explain it to you but with that attitude why should I open up more? Besides you could then just say that is unsubstantiated too.

You however made a number of unsubstantiated claims of external facts, I called out some, others I let slide. It appears the mod had a problem with some of that too. But now you claim to know my mind better than me? And expect me to prove to you how I feel...

P.S. This is not about me being the "owner" here, I volunteered to run this forum as long as I can and/or as long as the people in this forum wish me to. But seems you have some opinions on that too so you might as well air them too.

Israel claims clean hands but it can't show them.

Did I ever claim they had clean hands?

[joele]

This is also a case of special pleading, even if its hidden in the article. Example

I have even had to read a few instances of academics with large followings arguing that those attacked by Hamas, including babies, were not “civilians” at all.

No evidence required. Nope. Just has to be written by somebody and then it can be recycled. Special pleading.

So you are saying the author of that article didn't provide evidence for their claim? yet they linked an article where they read that, which is what they claimed happened, i.e. they read that an acedemic said xyz. I personally have no idea though how.large their following is.

This is the article they cited.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas ... 598ae48271

Not to mention the article below about the same incident cited now on said academics wikipedia page.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/set ... terrorism/

[Irrev-Black]

Wannabe admins should also do their job and call out Ballshit when they see it even if from the forum owner

Chap, you might like to consider how dickish you're looking at the moment. You've accused Joele of bullshit (that's how it's spelled), and now you're saying I don't do my job.

What comes next? I await your suggestion.

[stylofone]

And so it is in every genocide/ethnic cleansing so called. Seeking to find a balance.
Peace is a good idea, but it has to be two sided. Israel claims clean hands but it can't show them.

"But" is a very telling word: what comes after it can render meaningless or disingenuous the words which precede it.

The impression I get from your posts is that you have a moral absolutist position, that one side is evil, the other side is good. I think that's the wrong way to look at it. There are good and bad actors on both sides, the objective of a peace process is to empower and talk with the good actors, to marginalise the bad actors who cant be won over.

Have a read of the article below, warning against taking sides.

Also, I think this issue has the potential to cause great distress and anxiety. For those of us not personally involved (i.e. if you're not Palestinian or Israeli and have no choice in the matter) I hope everyone is taking care not be drawn in to a fight where the most likely outcome is bad - including for your own mental health. The October 7 atrocities and the Israeli military action which followed it have taken this conflict to a new and more disturbing level. The fact that people here are clashing in the streets and screaming at each other in response to world events is also unsettling. Peace begins at home.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -ceasefire

[wadaye]

And so it is in every genocide/ethnic cleansing so called. Seeking to find a balance.
Peace is a good idea, but it has to be two sided. Israel claims clean hands but it can't show them.

"But" is a very telling word: what comes after it can render meaningless or disingenuous the words which precede it.

The impression I get from your posts is that you have a moral absolutist position, that one side is evil, the other side is good. I think that's the wrong way to look at it. There are good and bad actors on both sides, the objective of a peace process is to empower and talk with the good actors, to marginalise the bad actors who cant be won over.

Have a read of the article below, warning against taking sides.

Also, I think this issue has the potential to cause great distress and anxiety. For those of us not personally involved (i.e. if you're not Palestinian or Israeli and have no choice in the matter) I hope everyone is taking care not be drawn in to a fight where the most likely outcome is bad - including for your own mental health. The October 7 atrocities and the Israeli military action which followed it have taken this conflict to a new and more disturbing level. The fact that people here are clashing in the streets and screaming at each other in response to world events is also unsettling. Peace begins at home.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -ceasefire

I think you have to identify what the "side" is. Its the IDF verse Palestinian civilians. Yes they can say "oh we don't kill all of them every day". The Nazis, for that matter the Interahamwe, and the Bosnian Serb army, in fact most genocidal groups when committing genocide, including ethnic cleansing, also did so in a process and not by killing all members of the group everyday.

There will always be some irrational and even violent actors in strressful and transformational times. But that doesn't mean that there is no obligation to get out on the street or in writing, to demand that Israel stop the killing is somehow wrong. Its a moral obligation.

[Irrev-Black]

Considering that it has been widely reported that Israel was urging/forcing Gaza residents towards the south, this headline and article are damning.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... thern-gaza

[wadaye]

MOD NOTE: This poster was warned about providing sources for their claims. Readers are advised to fact-check.





Response 1 of 3

So @wadaye the "bullshit" seems to be about this line?

I am more afraid of the backlash in Australia for criticising the actions of Hamas, Fatah, historically Arafat etc than I am of criticising the Israeli government..

Is that the case?

Yes that's correct. Noting that it was also part of a series of posts which failed to distinguish between valid supporters of continued Palestinian existence from those ratbags who delve into (European) anti-semitism, for example viewtopic.php?p=2522#p2522 [/quote]"I would also like to condemn Australian pro Palestinian protesters, again, ...[/quote]

I also note your earlier posts on the issue of civilians memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=2
{quote]
Whilst I have no doubt that will probably be the result, or worse, just because the 1500 militants who were killed in israel are not included in the deaths in gaza number, that does not mean the deaths in Gaza are 100% civilian..[/quote]
You quoted the number of Israeli's killed early in the piece memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=2

The numbers I have seen pretty consistently across different news sources are deaths of Israelis (which includes Jewish Israeli civilians, arab-muslims-palestianian Israeli civilians, foreign national civilians and a minority of Israeli soldiers) which is now 1200. Deaths in Gaza which last I saw was reported as being at 960 and separately the 1500 militants in Israel that Israel claims to have killed (a number authorities in Gaza have no way of confirming).

I had raised the issue that an unacknowledged part of the Israeli deaths on 7th October 2023 were as a result of the Hannibal Directive viewtopic.php?p=2510#p2510, and viewtopic.php?p=2516#p2516
Nobody engaged with this dispute as to causation of all the Israeli deaths, as being in part the result of an illegal military doctrine. For the record again the link to the Doctrine is here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive and further information from Israeli soldier reporter here https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023 ... -tells-all and the reports by Israeli survivors that it was the IDF which killed a very large number of the Israeli civilians, and my raising of the issue that when one looks at the outcomes, the deaths of Isreaeli civilians have been part of the knowing policy of the Israeli government, including through bombing Gaza and a significant part of its people, into dust.
One can read about it https://www.globalresearch.ca/what-real ... -7/5837833 and in the article linked on my 11th November post https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231 ... narrative/

with the title

Report: 7 October testimonies strike major blow to Israeli narrative

The long story short is that the Israeli Defence Force appears to have implemented the Hannibal Directive on October 7th, and on every day since then. This can be confirmed by the Israeli Cabinet Minister's who reported early in the war as reported by https://www.theguardian.com/profile/daphnabaramin The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... yahu-peace

A cabinet minister says: “We have to be cruel now and not consider the captives over much.” His words evoke the controversial “Hannibal directive” – which compels Israeli army units to do whatever is necessary to recover an abducted soldier, dead or alive.

Your post viewtopic.php?p=1984#p1984 posted IDF propaganda about not being responsible for targeting a hospital and calling it a lie viewtopic.php?p=1984#p1984 I note that the targeting of Hospitals by the IDF is explicit policy of the IDF. But in any case, you here criticised Hamas, and did not claim to fear any backlash in Australia for it.

They all lie, Hamas was saying Israel intentionally targeted the hospital but then intercepted calls get released..
But yes, don't get me wrong, Hamas and IDF/Netanyahu are as bad as each other, neither has regard for the people in Gaza and as I suggested earlier with reports Netanyahu ignored multiple intelligence reports that Hamas would attack (and had been supporting them in favour of the PA as you correctly pointed out), him not even really caring about Israeli lives either is NOT a shock.

I also acknowledge and respect that you criticised as well the IDF, and I acknowledge that a number of your posts equated the evil inflicted on civilians in the 7th October 2023 attacks, with that inflicted since, but to acknowledge the IDF as simply equal in evil to Hamas ignores both the power imbalance, and frankly the scale of the atrocities.
Continued below ...

[wadaye]

MOD NOTE: This poster was warned about providing sources for their claims. Readers are advised to fact-check.





2 of 3
I mentioned here the colonial civilian kill ratio where it had only reached at a minimum 2:1 and copped backlash for that. It is now at least 20:1 with the Palestinian sources indicating at least 12000 civilians killed not even counting those entombed, and still more blood and land is wanted by Israel. The other singular achievement has been the dubious claim by the IDF to have released a single hostage, and the much more realistic claim by Hamas that Israeli bombings have killed at least 60 hostages.
To return to your post 2521 where you said "

I am more afraid of the backlash in Australia for criticising the actions of Hamas, Fatah, historically Arafat etc than I am of criticising the Israeli government..

And your explanation viewtopic.php?p=2722#p2722

That isn't a claim to some external fact, its how "I" personally feel in my life. How do you propose I provide evidence of my personal feelings? I could explain it to you but with that attitude why should I open up more? Besides you could then just say that is unsubstantiated too.

You have criticised Hamas on this forum without backlash. You have also previously in this thread provided your own personal experience about the issue which differs from your last perspective here viewtopic.php?p=1846#p1846

To be honest I tend to argue with both sides of this, I have (jewish) family who get very upset if I use words like 'war crimes' around them and have their one sided history (which I confront), who simply stop talking to me. On the other hand I have 'left wing' (which obviously I am too) friends who only see their own selective version of history, justify counter atrocities and/or keep using "Jews" instead of IDF, and the conflict that I tend to have with them..

It sometimes kind of feels isolating in the middle (of course admittedly in my safe western ivory tower), though I often feel if both sides are angry at me, then I probably am somewhere nearer to the truth than either of them hahaha... Or I am just a gluten for disagreement.

So you have clearly on this forum both expressed criticism of Hamas without backlash, and expressed that you can do so within your circle of friends without backlash. So it is unclear just what form of criticism you would want to make beyond your significant criticism of Hamas, and Fatah which you feel that you can’t make. Or are you suggesting that you feel afraid from some inferred source in Australia because of the criticism that you already made of Hamas in the above posts? You have not indicated or suggested that there is some actual indication of a threat of harm to you personally. As far as I understand your claim, you fear harm if you were to criticise Hamas. But you have already done so

You however made a number of unsubstantiated claims of external facts, I called out some, others I let slide. It appears the mod had a problem with some of that too.

I’ll respond to that separately, but for the record, the issue was I mentioned the Palestinian Authority killing a 12 year old girl. A search for “palestinian authority killing of 12 year old girl” on Bing results in the report from Al Jazeera of 18th October 2023 that https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/ ... za-attacks

Ramallah, occupied West Bank – A young Palestinian girl was shot and killed by Palestinian Authority (PA) security forces on Tuesday during protests in the northern West Bank city of Jenin in response to the deadly explosion at a hospital in the besieged Gaza Strip.
“A bullet entered the right side of her chest. It pierced her lungs and hit her heart,” her uncle, 64-year-old Ziad Nasrallah told Al Jazeera.
“We consider her a martyr who was killed defending Gaza. We mourn her with pride,” he continued.