Israel

[Irrev-Black]

My ICC appearance list would include John Howard and GW Bush as well.

[joele]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... stract.com

[pipbarber]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... -nasrallah

Seriously, wtf? Netanyahu and his party need to be removed from office, not just for the sake of Lebanon and Palestine but also for the sake of Israel. This is batshit crazy.

[joele]

Seriously, wtf? Netanyahu and his party need to be removed from office, not just for the sake of Lebanon and Palestine but also for the sake of Israel. This is batshit crazy.

Yeah and Hezbollah who have spent the last decade killing Syrians for their Iranian masters need to be removed from Lebanon for the sake of Syria, Israel, Lebanon etc

I also find it interesting in this thread and elsewhere we (in the west particularly on the left) talk about Hamas being the product of Israel but what is Netenyahu the product of? just evil as Jews/Israelis are uniquely evil? or is the lack of the left (any more) in Israel the direct result of the politics and behaviour of their neighbours and beyond?

[pipbarber]

Seriously, wtf? Netanyahu and his party need to be removed from office, not just for the sake of Lebanon and Palestine but also for the sake of Israel. This is batshit crazy.

Yeah and Hezbollah who have spent the last decade killing Syrians for their Iranian masters need to be removed from Lebanon for the sake of Syria, Israel, Lebanon etc

I also find it interesting in this thread and elsewhere we (in the west particularly on the left) talk about Hamas being the product of Israel but what is Netenyahu the product of? just evil as Jews/Israelis are uniquely evil? or is the lack of the left (any more) in Israel the direct result of the politics and behaviour of their neighbours and beyond?

I guess Netenyahu is a product of neoliberalism plus zionism and the lack of a viable left alternative in Israel is probably a result of the same or similar conditions that have produced a lack of a viable left alternative everywhere. Dropping bombs on apartment blocks in order to execute one specific individual is just a war crime, to add to Netenyahu's other war crimes. But that's not to ignore the war crimes of Hamas or Hezbollah or Assad. The moral high ground was obliterated and is nothing more than a giant bomb crater, at this point, so it's not about taking sides.

I'm hardly an expert on Israeli politics but expanding a war and killing tens of thousands of non-combatants in the process seems insane to me. Everyone needs to stop. All parties need a cease fire, all hostages need to be released - any other action, from any side, risks turning the whole region into an uninhabitable rubble. Who wins from that?

I have a jewish friend, and i work with a jewish client, i understand the difficulty of the situation, the sensitivity of it. It's certainly not my intention to blame everything on Israel but i gotta say, Netanyahu's all out war approach does not appear to be a wise course of action, in my opinion.

[joele]

I guess Netenyahu is a product of neoliberalism plus zionism and the lack of a viable left alternative in Israel is probably a result of the same or similar conditions that have produced a lack of a viable left alternative everywhere.

So Hamas aggression is the product of Israel and Israeli aggression is the product of neo liberalism and zionism (so worldwide issue and jews own issue), no external pressure and aggression from their neighbours in any way shaped Israeli politics? Attempts at peace returned with violence, time and time again destroyed any trust Israeli's had in their left.

Re Zionism, so any other group wants the right to self determination then that is fair and their right, but Jews wanting self determination (the very definition of Zionism), is racism. Just like a jewish state is racism, but 19 Islamic states is not..

I'm really struggling with the blatant double standards on display by on the left at these protests and in the mainstream media.. BTW this is what drives the claims of antisemetism, based on the 3 D's.

The three Ds of antisemitism - Double Standards, Delegitimization and Demonization - I often see all three on display at the pro Palestine rallies in Australia.

Dropping bombs on apartment blocks in order to execute one specific individual is just a war crime, to add to Netenyahu's other war crimes. But that's not to ignore the war crimes of Hamas or Hezbollah or Assad. The moral high ground was obliterated and is nothing more than a giant bomb crater, at this point, so it's not about taking sides.

The moral high ground was obliterated in the UN long ago too.. It's a 100% political organisation driving political agendas, not peace. Israel is bared in the UN from the Regional Council Groups and cannot participate in UN talks on human rights, racism and a number of other issues. Israel has always been denied the ability to be a member of the Security Council.

UN resolution 3379 (revoked after 20 years) also stated the nature of Israel as a Jewish state is racism, yet the same has NEVER been levelled at any Islamic state. If that isn't a double standard and blatant jew hate I am not sure what is?

"so it's not about taking sides." - yet that is all I see in much of media here and in the UN, political point scoring, one sided stories and taking of sides.

I'm hardly an expert on Israeli politics but expanding a war and killing tens of thousands of non-combatants in the process seems insane to me.

How can you even tell as in Gaza they do not distinguish civilian from non civilian casualties. They specify children, but does that include 17 year olds given guns by Hamas and sent to die? who knows? as they won't distinguish between them and no one raises an eyebrow at that clearly manipulative tactic.

Everyone needs to stop. All parties need a cease fire, all hostages need to be released - any other action, from any side, risks turning the whole region into an uninhabitable rubble.

100% would be a great outcome.

Israel withdrew from Lebanon after the last war, the deal was UN controls southern Lebanon (and it is 100% demilitarised). Israel left and now southern Lebanon has somewhere over 130,000 rockets massed, one of the most militarised areas in the world and for the last year firing into Israel.

Making peace with Hamas and PLA seems near impossible to me, I downloaded the UNRWA school books (for primary school) over covid as they went online, they read like the protocols of the elders of zion. How do you make peace with people raised like that? The leader of the PLA (Abbas) still advertises his book (his PHD) on his parliamentary web page. Quick summary, the Jews manipulated the Germans into killing them so they could gaslight the world into Zionism. How do you make peace with someone like that?? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Other ... nd_Zionism

I don't like Netenyahu, don't get me wrong, but I see where he came from, and he is every bit as much a response as the shit leaders on the other side are.

[stylofone]

I have this half-formed uneducated idea about regional wars where the great powers take an interest. If it was just between the regional residents and their neighbours it would be far less deadly, less drawn-out and easier to find a solution. But because Russia, the USA, Australia, Iran etc., all join in, it's so much harder to resolve, they are throwing petrol on the fire. The religious aspect (I'm thinking Christianity/Islam) also plays into this, where you send money/weapons/thoughts and prayers because of your own beliefs.

Of course it's good to care and to stand up for what you believe is right, but what if inadvertently you make the situation worse in doing so? I feel like all the debate, e.g. at the level of Australian politics (e.g. Dutton), or someone like me getting passionate about it is part of that incendiary global involvement.

Making peace with Hamas and PLA seems near impossible to me, I downloaded the UNRWA school books (for primary school) over covid as they went online, they read like the protocols of the elders of zion. How do you make peace with people raised like that? The leader of the PLA (Abbas) still advertises his book (his PHD) on his parliamentary web page. Quick summary, the Jews manipulated the Germans into killing them so they could gaslight the world into Zionism. How do you make peace with someone like that??

I wasn't aware of this and it is a challenge. Ultimately, you don't make peace with your friends. But which enemies are redeemable? Plenty of people thought Arafat wasn't, and yet the Oslo process with him and Rabin at the centre was the closest they got to a meaningful peace. Part of the process is to build up the strength of the pro-peace factions on both sides. As I recall the deal involved Israel handing over lots of money to the Palestinian Authority, based on a formula derived from taxes paid by Palestinians which the Israeli treasury benefited from. Not too sure of the detail of that, or if any of those arrangements survive. Compared to 1993, we are back at square one, but the same challenge lies ahead.

[joele]

Before I disappear (for a while), as I’ve really had enough of the internet at the moment and want a break for my own sanity, I would like to explain my claim about the UN in my last post.

In the UNHRC, since it’s inception 54% of ALL condemnations have been made against Israel, that’s more condemnations for the ‘Jewish state’ than the rest of the world combined… Think on that, the theocracies and autocracies (which btw now outnumber democracies as member states in both the general assembly and on the HRC) combined have done less in totality than the ‘Jewish state’. In the general assembly for the last decade, it is far worse, 79% of ALL resolutions passed have condemned one country, Israel.

For over a thousand years leaders in Christian majority Europe and the Muslim majority mid east have routinely used Jews as the scapegoat or whipping boy to deflect from their own issues, we used to call that antisemitism (phrase that specifically refers to Jews as coined in Germany). Now they do the same in the UN, (to strongman the UN defenders) their best justification that I have heard for this, is that this time it is not antisemitism, it is the ‘geo-political reality’ of the UN and the world. Apparently the only state in the world that geo politics allow you to criticise (often to deflect from your own issues) is the Jewish one, sounds the exact same pattern of antisemetism that has played out for the last 1000+ years to me.

At best, that behaviour, even if done as convenient and not based on the individual leaders personal Jew hatred, drives antisemitism. Is this really how we want the United Nations to work?

So back to Israel, what do you think that behaviour drives in Israel??? Does it support the left and help amplify their voices? Or does it support the far right and help build their support? This, IMHO, is a part of the reason Israel reverses the trend of pretty much every democracy in the world, where the younger generation (under 25) are now far more right wing than their elders. According to internal polls 80% of youth their identify as right wing. Not to leave out the counter productive nature of BDS where youth from western universities seem to hold a delusion that disengaging from Israeli youth will help the situation.

Interesting counter point from the chair of urban warfare studies at west point - https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-cre ... on-1883286