Australian Atheists Forum

MOD NOTE: This poster was warned about providing sources for their claims. Readers are advised to fact-check.



3 of 3

But now you claim to know my mind better than me? And expect me to prove to you how I feel...

Er, no I don’t’ and didn’t claim to know your mind. I am reflecting back your claim to fear backlash in the context where you have not only criticised but also condemned Hamas in this thread.
Earlier you helpfully offered an anecdote about doing so in your own life as well. Then you suddenly claim to be afraid to criticise not only Hamas, but also, Fatah. Presumably your fear is not of the actual Hamas in Gaza since they clearly have other significant difficulties to face at the moment. It appears then you are referring to a fear of backlash in Australia. That would be unfortunate.
But it hasn’t stopped you liking another post in which a user here – Stylofone - on 11th November 2023, with full knowledge of the fact of what “condemnation” actually means in practice, that is ethnic cleansing, stated viewtopic.php?p=2539#p2539

Having said that, I think the evidence of the real world - not some sort of abstract concept of evil - allows me to condemn Hamas and its ideals and practices with very little equivocation. There is no need to concoct stories about beheaded babies or utterly oversimplified phrases like "Hamas is ISIS".

The raw facts are enough on their own without the despicable (Squid) games played by the likes of Netanyahu. And it doesn't matter how extreme the Israeli reaction is, subsequent to this reality coming about. Hamas is what it is, it did what it did, …[/url]
I note that you and the Mod Mr Black both liked this post. app.php/reactions?mode=view&post=2539

So its disingenuous to say that you fear backlash in Australia if you criticise Fatah and Hamas. But its also instructive that it ignores both what actually happened on 7th October 2023 and Israel’s illegal war tactics actually killing a number of its own civilians, and in extremis since then, through the Hannibal Directive or similar practice in the real world, but more significantly it ignores the 75 years of atrocities and the fact that Israel as the occupying power was inflicting a siege on Gaza for 17 years. Think back to some other of the medieval sieges in history and then think about how it applies in the Gaza ghettoe. For that matter even if it were taken at its worst, at a ratio of two civilians apparently deliberately killed for every soldier/police, that would be nothing compared to Israel’s regular obliteration of dozens of Palestinian innocents in order to get one or another man, and they usually fail in doing so anyway and just accept the collateral murder as so much of dust.
See for example NPRs report of 11th November 2023 https://www.npr.org/2023/11/11/12123263 ... war-crimes

But the attacks two weeks ago against a suspected Hamas leader inside a tunnel next to the Jabalia refugee camp in Gaza raised questions about proportionality and led to accusations of war crimes being committed by Israel. Some 50 civilians were killed in the attack.
"Given the high number of civilian casualties [and] the scale of destruction following Israeli air strikes on the Jabalia refugee camp we have serious concerns that these are disproportionate attacks that could amount to war crimes," the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights said in a statement.

This is a long standing problem of murder of civilians by Israel in so called targeted assassination attempts, including the killing of the family of the current military leader of Hamas. Yossi Melman wrote in 2007 that between 2000 and 2006 there were 123 collateral murders in this way:

One reason targeted killing should be banned, critics say, is that innocent civilians often are killed in the attacks. In a 2006 letter to Israeli Prime Minister Olmert and Minister of Defense Amir Peretz, the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem contended that since 2000, assassination attempts against suspected Palestinian terrorists have killed 123 non-targeted civilians. “When an assassination is carried out through the firing of missiles from the air on a car that is traveling during the day in a crowded residential area,” the group wrote, “the chance that civilians will be harmed is almost certain.”

On 17th July 2023 the Guardian reported about collateral murders by Israel in its 9th May 2023 bombing of Gaza:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... es-in-gaza

On the street in central Gaza City where the family of Khalil al-Bahtini lived, the contents of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad commander’s home and the two houses on either side remain spilled out into the street. Passersby must navigate the rubble and crumpled shell of a water tank, as well as the debris of an annihilated family life: a red teddy bear, kitchen utensils, scraps of books and clothing.
The Adas family were not the targets of the airstrike that hit their neighbour’s house at about 2am on 9 May, in the opening salvo of Israel’s Shield and Arrow operation, but the buildings were less than a metre apart. The GBU-39 bomb that crashed through three floors of the Bahtini home, down into the basement, also blew apart one side of the Adas’s house, killing the family’s two teenage daughters. Dania, 19, died immediately, while her sister, Imam, 17, clung to life for two hours before succumbing to her injuries in hospital.
“The explosion blew the bedroom door off on to me and my wife as we were sleeping, and then I ran into the living room to find the children,” said Alaa Adas, 55, a civil servant. “My son was there, but my daughters did not respond. When I saw their hair under the rubble my heart stopped.”

One can condemn actions without condemning them, their families, their community, their whole people, to destruction. But where that is the clear intent of the international community in the “clearance operation” in Gaza, condemnation of Hamas is not only futile, it is out of the context of the current genocide. Something akin to condemning the Jewish resistance against Nazi Germany without explanation of why it occurs.
From the clear statement of condemnation of the existence of Hamas, expressed by Stylofone and liked by you and Mr Black, without admission of the structural violence out of which it arises we join the chorus of support for its extirpation, and watch the attempts at its extermination through “clearance operation” as not only necessary, but by this logic, justified. Then we get into trivialities like whether its justified to kill a counted 12000 including 5000 children just for beginners purportedly to clear Hamas out of Gaza, or perhaps to be able to claim the purported and dubious “rescue” of an Israeli soldier https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11 ... tered-gaza

Israel’s air and ground campaign has killed an estimated 12,000 people in the Palestinian territory, including 5,000 children, according to Palestinian authorities.

Of note is that the ability to count the dead is no longer current and thousands have been reported to remain uncounted entombed or dying under the rubble, including children.
Hamas is evil according to your own logic, therefore assassinations are justified, even though they are usually botched and kill the families and others happening to be around those sought to be killed. And somehow this is not terrorism, or not evil, not to be condemned, at least not in the literal way of condemnation to death which those on this forum deal out with such ease.
For the record in response to your claimed fear of backlash if you were to criticise Hamas or Fatah, I indicated that the Australian Government recently gave 25M to ECAJ which promotes false propaganda about Hamas beheading forty babies.
The ECAJ President on October 12th addressed Sydney’s United with Israel gathering and posted the speech on its website here https://www.ecaj.org.au/ecaj-presidents ... gathering/

The butchery and savagery that has unfolded in Israel beggars description. Jews were hunted down and murdered in their homes and on the streets. Infants were beheaded in their beds. . Women were raped. The dead were desecrated. Hostages were degraded in public. Whole communities were decimated and buildings burnt to the ground
Not since the Holocaust have so many Jewish lives been taken in a single day.
We are totally shattered as we stand together this evening, mourning the 900 or more innocent lives lost, and praying for the speedy recovery of the injured and the safe release of all of the hostages. If we had thought that the barbarity of the Holocaust would not happen again, the events of the weekend have demonstrated to the whole world that when Hamas proclaims that it intends to obliterate Israel and its Jewish population, it means what it says.

But the facts of the matter, that there is no evidence any babies were really beheaded by Hamas, and that a significant proportion of the Israeli civilians were killed by the Israeli army in fact, and the false claim that Hamas’ proclamation is to obliterate Israel’s Jewish population, these matters are important.
The Australian Government rewards such vicious and false propaganda by deeming that organisation, ECAJ, to be fit and proper to receive AUD$25M on October 20th – linked here [url]https://www.australianjewishnews.com/25 ... urity/[url]
And I also mentioned that the Australian Government passed motions pledging support for Israel whatever it does:

https://ministers.ag .gov.au/media-centre/speeches/motion-condemning-hamas-attacks-israel-16-10-2023

As the founding charter of Hamas declares, its aim is to "obliterate" Israel.
Today, more than 75 years since Australia supported the creation of the modern state of Israel, my message is simple: the Australian Government stands as one with Israel and the people of Israel against Hamas and its supporters.
Australia stands as one with the Jewish community.

Reading that one would think that the only rational response is for Hamas to be obliterated. But that would be to look at the situation taken completely out of historical context, ignoring Israel’s active killing of its own civilians, and its taking advantage of the operation to effect not only genocidal massacre but also ethnic cleansing in the course of its clearance operations.

P.S. This is not about me being the "owner" here, I volunteered to run this forum as long as I can and/or as long as the people in this forum wish me to. But seems you have some opinions on that too so you might as well air them too.

I have

wadaye wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 12:13 amIsrael claims clean hands but it can't show them.

Did I ever claim they had clean hands?

Condemnation of Hamas on 11th November 2023 out of context of the genocide not only before 7th October 2023 but also since then, and without examining the context of Israeli killing of its own civilians on 7th October 2023 and since then, claiming to fear backlash for criticising Fatah or Hamas, implying that you are somehow fearful to do so after having already done so even in this thread in unequivocal terms is a form of special pleading,.
Further, the claim to not fear criticising the Israeli government or backlash for doing so because you know they don’t do anything to their own, or white people, is a claim that Israeli government and their supporters are somehow better than Hamas.
It can be expressed as personal feeling. So too is condemnation of Hamas. There are no free passes in public debate.
Jewish people were subjected to Genocide. So too have many others been. Now the Palestinians are. The ethnicity of the perpetrators and their claimed justifications cannot excuse the crime of genocide being committed.

It's a shame I have to use bird thing to get this clip.

Anderson Cooper's guest tonight, former Israeli intelligence chief:

"The noncombatant population in the Gaza strip is really a nonexistent term because all of the Gazans voted for Hamas, and as we have seen on 7th of October most of the population in the Gaza strip are Hamas."

Consider that approximately half the population of Gaza are below voting age.

Consider that the last election in Gaza was in 2006.

I'm calling bullshit on the intelligence guy.

https://m.thewire.in/article/world/nort ... e-conflict

'No Innocent Civilians in Gaza', Israel President Says as Northern Gaza Struggles to Flee Israeli Bombs

From Axios correspondent Barak Ravid:

@BarakRavid
BREAKING: Biden says the U.S. is prepared to impose sanctions on Israeli settlers who are involved in attacks against Palestinians in the West Bank.
Why it matters: This is a big deal. It's the 1st time the U.S. is publicly considering individual sanctions against settlers

Many of those invaders who "settle" are US citizens, so Biden's threat may have teeth.

wadaye wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:52 amEarlier you helpfully offered an anecdote about doing so in your own life as well. Then you suddenly claim to be afraid to criticise not only Hamas, but also, Fatah. Presumably your fear is not of the actual Hamas in Gaza since they clearly have other significant difficulties to face at the moment. It appears then you are referring to a fear of backlash in Australia. That would be unfortunate.
But it hasn’t stopped you liking another post in which a user here – Stylofone - on 11th November 2023, with full knowledge of the fact of what “condemnation” actually means in practice, that is ethnic cleansing, stated viewtopic.php?p=2539#p2539

Sigh, this forum is at arms length from real life, I am semi anonymous here. Vs how I feel in out in public in Australia where at protests people HERE chant "gas the Jews" not Israel, not IDF but Jews. Despite being an atheist I still have experience so called antisemitism (don't like that word) both from Arab Australians and White Australians many times, as they see Judaism as a race, as you alluded to earlier in this thread (which I took issue with).

Yes when i feel safer in a forum to criticise leaders on both sides, as LEADERS on both sides of this have for decades undermined moments of progress towards peace, while increasing their own personal wealth or power in the process. Though, I do agree since the left was decimated in Israel in part for repeatedly failing to make peace, the far right has taken over and they do not want peace at all.

There is also plenty of sloppy claims from you that I have wanted to respond to in this thread and have left because what's the fucken point? us arguing here does not improve anything for anyone!

wadaye wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:52 amFurther, the claim to not fear criticising the Israeli government or backlash for doing so because you know they don’t do anything to their own, or white people, is a claim that Israeli government and their supporters are somehow better than Hamas.

No I am talking about the supporters here, in Australia, and my experience of their conflating of Israel and Jews. Of the rise in antisemetic attacks worldwide, my experience of the rise of "anti semetism" from white kids at an Anglican high school here whenever this kicked off. Of the rise of sloppy anti semetic language in broader society. Of attacks on the progressive synagogue my father volunteered at every time this conflict made the news, despite most there being non or even anti Zionist including the rabbi, but who cares, Jews even in Australia are the problem and need to be addressed and to justify the actions of the Israeli government.

Bit like your post earlier when you asked how to approach jews to discuss thus topic.. Why? I left that question out but why? To berate them? Are jews here responsible for the actions of the israeli government? Are they responsible in any way that you feel the need to address them?

That article which you called special pleading (still waiting for justification of that term BTW) was a good reflection of experiences I have had with friends that I have had to walk away from for my own sake as many still have this anti Jewish bigotry just below the surface that tends to show its face at these moments.

wadaye wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:52 amBut the facts of the matter, that there is no evidence any babies were really beheaded by Hamas,

Do you expect video footage to be released, I have listened to interviews with reporters who saw the, not publicly released, footage that Israel invited reporters to see. They spoke of murdering of kids in front of their parents before the parents were also killed. They spoke of a Thai worker being beheaded with a gardening tool, which apparently took a gruesomely long time to finish, etc etc. But Hamas themselves are still claiming no civilians were killed. Just like arseholes in the Israeli government claim there are no civilians in Gaza.

Citation needed..
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67321241

wadaye wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:52 amHamas is evil according to your own logic, therefore assassinations are justified, even though they are usually botched and kill the families and others happening to be around those sought to be killed.

Where did I say any of that? I oppose those indiscriminate drone attacks just like I opposed it when it came to light Obama did it so many times.

wadaye wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:51 amYes that's correct. Noting that it was also part of a series of posts which failed to distinguish between valid supporters of continued Palestinian existence from those ratbags who delve into (European) anti-semitism, for example viewtopic.php?p=2522#p2522

"I would also like to condemn Australian pro Palestinian protesters, again, ...

A rally organised by 'Free Palestinian Melbourne" the same group claiming to be the organisers of the protests each week outside the melbourne state library. Are they European antisemitic ratbags? How about the President of the Australia Palestine Advocacy Network, Nasser Mashni, who on q&a last week said they had every right to protest outside a synagogue on a Friday evening for the actions of the Israeli government. I guess by extension that makes the Australia Palestine Advocacy Network European antisemitic ratbags?

Hate to say I agree with Dave Dharma but I do, if pro Israeli protesters decided protesting outside a Mosque for the actions of any of the "Muslim states" I would have the same criticism for them.

However I do conceed I could have use the word "some" in the middle there.

joele wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 12:34 pm

wadaye wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:52 amEarlier you helpfully offered an anecdote about doing so in your own life as well. Then you suddenly claim to be afraid to criticise not only Hamas, but also, Fatah. Presumably your fear is not of the actual Hamas in Gaza since they clearly have other significant difficulties to face at the moment. It appears then you are referring to a fear of backlash in Australia. That would be unfortunate.
But it hasn’t stopped you liking another post in which a user here – Stylofone - on 11th November 2023, with full knowledge of the fact of what “condemnation” actually means in practice, that is ethnic cleansing, stated viewtopic.php?p=2539#p2539

Sigh, this forum is at arms length from real life, I am semi anonymous here. Vs how I feel in out in public in Australia where at protests people HERE chant "gas the Jews" not Israel, not IDF but Jews. ....

I'll read your whole post and reply later. Disclosure. I attended a rally today. The one you're speaking about apparently. The organisers announced prior to the rally "There will be strictly zero tolerance of anti-semitism. That is part of the problem not the solution. "

Frankly I think you have been misled. I have heard anti-semitism all my life but its Euro Christian anti-semitism.
That being said in a country with freedom of speech there is no way to stop either assholes, wreckers, bandwagonists, or frankly agent provocateurs, from crashing into a rally and spewing forth anti-semitic vomit.

But the tarring with the brush of anti-semitism of all protests for Palestinian rights, cease fire now protests, is unacceptable.

wadaye wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 5:47 pmI have heard anti-semitism all my life but its Euro Christian anti-semitism.

Cool, not my experience, part of it but far from all.

wadaye wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:52 amthey don’t do anything to their own, or white people

This and a couple of earlier statements make me wonder what background you think the majority of Jews in Israel are from. So question for you, the majority of Jews in Israel (61%) are originally from one region, overwhelmingly from countries that forcefully expelled them, what region was that?

wadaye wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 5:47 pmBut the tarring with the brush of anti-semitism of all protests for Palestinian rights, cease fire now protests, is unacceptable.

How is what you quoted saying "ALL protestors are anti semetic?" Please explain your latest straw-man.

MOD NOTE: This poster was warned about providing sources for their claims. Readers are advised to fact-check.




I have a lot to reply to and it will take time. But its strange to hear on an atheist forum an argument that there can't be a protest outside a religious institution. By that measure it would be anti-catholic to protest for justice about child abuse in the catholic church. Or to protest against segregation in a church. Do you make the same rules for scientology? How about Jehovah's witnesses?