Israel

[Irrev-Black]

Just to explain my absence from this forum for some time and perhaps indefinitely, that I believe that there is a special case going on here where anecdotes in favour of israel, claimed anti--semitism, personal fears, can be made but different standards are applied to expressions against the genocide of Palestinians by the Isrealis.

I am applying exactly the same standards to all.

You are welcome to continue, but quote your sources, so they can be evaluated for veracity.

ADD: If the above is how you see things, perhaps a less fact-rigorous platform might suit you better.

By the way, I see you didn't cite the alleged cases of bias either.

[stylofone]

Just to explain my absence from this forum for some time and perhaps indefinitely, that I believe that there is a special case going on here where anecdotes in favour of israel, claimed anti--semitism, personal fears, can be made but different standards are applied to expressions against the genocide of Palestinians by the Isrealis.

I disagree with you, I think people are struggling to find a balance here. It's incredibly difficult because no matter how hard anyone strives to put forward a decent point of view, there's always a way for it to be construed as either Islamophobic or Anti-Semitic, to use two shorthand terms being bandied about at the moment. Everyone fails, everyone is wrong, I'm wrong, you're wrong.

The only thing I cling to is the idea of peace, a peace process. That's not wrong.

[wadaye]

I think it best to let them bring it up if they choose to, as you have said there is a certain social/community cost for offering how they feel (if not towing the line) that I think prevents many from feeling comfortable to talk about how they feel, which is probably rather complex to say the least..

Been thinking a lot about this, and realised something.. There is actually plenty to criticise in the leadership on both sides of this conflict, but I am more afraid of the backlash in Australia for criticising the actions of Hamas, Fatah, historically Arafat etc than I am of criticising the Israeli government.. Just thought that worth mentioning in the interest of being open on this topic..

Nothing personal Joele but I was asked to reference where the special case is. Really, afraid of the backlash? In Australia? I note this post was some several thousand Palestinian civilian deaths ago so the benefit of hindsight should not cloud the issue, but my response to this, as a result of which I was banned for a day, was in response to the claim that somehow people were cowering in fear to "condemn Hamas" even in Australia and so their voices were silenced. Sorry but I didn't notice that happening at all. In fact there was a rancour and stampede, and stigmatisation against those who did not condemn Hamas, even though what was being sought was for those condemning Hamas to also condemn their families to death under Israeli bombs. So, this post is drawn out and required by the Mod's calling on me to identify the special pleading.

On a not completely unrelated matter, I understand and appreciate your work in making this forum happen, but I think the model is also unsustainable too in that the whole show is ultimately just your own website and if its too much for you then of course you have to drop it all, but that's another issue.

[wadaye]

MOD NOTE: This poster was warned about providing sources for their claims. Readers are advised to fact-check.

Decent article, I think, from the Australian Jewish perspective. I wanted to quote the whole article, lol, but selected a few paragraphs. The whole article was a really thoughtful and well articulated read, IMHO.

In recent weeks I have had to hear chants of “Gas the Jews” in my own city — outside one of my favourite concert halls in the world no less, where my own grandmother heard me perform a Mozart concerto when I was nine years old. I have not even been allowed to grieve the faces of the dead because of the threat of what was coming in response to the atrocities of 7 October from a corrupt right-wing government that purports to speak for me and other Jews. I have been berated for suffering in the “wrong way”, using history as the only anchor that I and many others have.

I have to see the faces of innocent Palestinian children smeared with ash and soot from a relentless bombing campaign, and I have to see the charred corpses of Israelis, men, women, and children, slaughtered because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I have to read details of unspeakable tortures inflicted on women and children and, in the very same hour, read blanket denials of these very tortures — not, as might be expected, from right-wing conspiracists but from a loud minority of people on the far-left. I have to see the blankness and rage smeared across the faces of thousands of Gazans who had nothing to do with the original outrage, but had their homes and entire families destroyed all the same — thousands of their children blown to dust, their infrastructure pulverised, their food and water supplies cut off, even as “freedom fighters” purporting to represent them hoard billions of dollars in wealth elsewhere. I have had to read of an Islamic preacher in my own city who openly called for Jews to be killed, while in America a US congresswoman has called for all Palestinians to be killed. I have even had to read a few instances of academics with large followings arguing that those attacked by Hamas, including babies, were not “civilians” at all.

How on earth did we get here?

https://www.abc.net.au/religion/simon-t ... /103096210

This is also a case of special pleading, even if its hidden in the article. Example

I have even had to read a few instances of academics with large followings arguing that those attacked by Hamas, including babies, were not “civilians” at all.

No evidence required. Nope. Just has to be written by somebody and then it can be recycled. Special pleading.

[wadaye]

Just to explain my absence from this forum for some time and perhaps indefinitely, that I believe that there is a special case going on here where anecdotes in favour of israel, claimed anti--semitism, personal fears, can be made but different standards are applied to expressions against the genocide of Palestinians by the Isrealis.

I am applying exactly the same standards to all.

You are welcome to continue, but quote your sources, so they can be evaluated for veracity.

ADD: If the above is how you see things, perhaps a less fact-rigorous platform might suit you better.

By the way, I see you didn't cite the alleged cases of bias either.

I've listed a few examples in the posts above.

[wadaye]

Just to explain my absence from this forum for some time and perhaps indefinitely, that I believe that there is a special case going on here where anecdotes in favour of israel, claimed anti--semitism, personal fears, can be made but different standards are applied to expressions against the genocide of Palestinians by the Isrealis.

I disagree with you, I think people are struggling to find a balance here. It's incredibly difficult because no matter how hard anyone strives to put forward a decent point of view, there's always a way for it to be construed as either Islamophobic or Anti-Semitic, to use two shorthand terms being bandied about at the moment. Everyone fails, everyone is wrong, I'm wrong, you're wrong.

The only thing I cling to is the idea of peace, a peace process. That's not wrong.

And so it is in every genocide/ethnic cleansing so called. Seeking to find a balance.
Peace is a good idea, but it has to be two sided. Israel claims clean hands but it can't show them.

[Irrev-Black]

I've listed a few examples in the posts above.

So, @joele mentions an article, which in your mind contains special pleading.

Are you saying that Joele has thus engaged in special pleading or bias?

[wadaye]

I've listed a few examples in the posts above.

So, @joele mentions an article, which in your mind contains special pleading.

Are you saying that Joele has thus engaged in special pleading or bias?

I made two quotes. Don't latch onto this one. I noticed it later and it post-dates the suspension. The issue which led to the suspension was my response to the post in which it was claimed that there was a fear of backlash in Australia if one criticised Hamas or Fatah,

If you address that issue which I clearly raised, then I will respond to your question in this post.

Also please refrain from putting words into my mouth.
I clearly used the words "special pleading" I did not use the word bias in the post to which you have here replied.

[Irrev-Black]

I've listed a few examples in the posts above.

So, @joele mentions an article, which in your mind contains special pleading.

Are you saying that Joele has thus engaged in special pleading or bias?

I made two quotes. Don't latch onto this one. I noticed it later and it post-dates the suspension. The issue which led to the suspension was my response to the post in which it was claimed that there was a fear of backlash in Australia if one criticised Hamas or Fatah,

If you address that issue which I clearly raised, then I will respond to your question in this post.

I don't think you have grasped the reason for giving you 24 hours off.

You made some claims in two posts, and did not cite any sources for those claims: it was for this reason you were suspended.

[wadaye]

MOD NOTE: This poster was warned about providing sources for their claims. Readers are advised to fact-check.

So, @joele mentions an article, which in your mind contains special pleading.

Are you saying that Joele has thus engaged in special pleading or bias?

I made two quotes. Don't latch onto this one. I noticed it later and it post-dates the suspension. The issue which led to the suspension was my response to the post in which it was claimed that there was a fear of backlash in Australia if one criticised Hamas or Fatah,

If you address that issue which I clearly raised, then I will respond to your question in this post.

I don't think you have grasped the reason for giving you 24 hours off.

You made some claims in two posts, and did not cite any sources for those claims: it was for this reason you were suspended.

I don't think you have understood my response to that. If there are two standards, one by which one can claim that one is in fear of backlash to criticise Hamas or Fatah, in Australia, and then, in response, I am supposed to refute it with citations and the like, well that's just not the case. A claim which is made without evidence can be rebutted to and also responded to without evidence. The standards that you claim don't exist, at least not here in this thread.