Australian Atheists Forum

joele wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:16 pmI think it best to let them bring it up if they choose to, as you have said there is a certain social/community cost for offering how they feel (if not towing the line) that I think prevents many from feeling comfortable to talk about how they feel, which is probably rather complex to say the least..

Been thinking a lot about this, and realised something.. There is actually plenty to criticise in the leadership on both sides of this conflict, but I am more afraid of the backlash in Australia for criticising the actions of Hamas, Fatah, historically Arafat etc than I am of criticising the Israeli government.. Just thought that worth mentioning in the interest of being open on this topic..

I would also like to condemn Australian pro Palestinian protesters, again, who decided it is a useful exercise in free speech to hold a protest in Caulfield across the road from a synagogue last Friday evening.. Which obviously descended in chaos and police deployed pepper spray. But that is a clear attempt of intimidation of Jews for simply being Jews (not Israelis) in Australia.

I can't fathom being "pro" either faction in this. The actions of both sides preclude me from supporting them.

If I'm for any mob, it's the kids and non-combatants copping the brunt of hostilities.

Just came to post this article, to be clear I am anti-war and anti-killing people so I support neither side, but the strangeness of the police statement in this article almost beggars belief, I mean it's not even a equivocation, it's just a straight statement with no evidence to support it, they even admitted in the article there was currently no evidence yet as to the reason for the explosion/fire.

Victoria Police Inspector Scott Dwyer urged people to stop making assumptions and linking the fire to the conflict in the Middle East.

“I’d like to point out, at this stage, there is nothing to indicate that this incident is related to any religious or political involvement,” he said.

“I am confident that this is not religiously or politically motivated.

Does he not understand that he has done exactly the same as he is accusing people of? He has just assumed it's not political or religiously motivated.

https://www.news.com.au/national/victor ... 35ab022360

Yeah they definitely should have left it at the line above, I.e. there is currently no evidence of political or religious involvement.

Irrev-Black wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:11 pm I can't fathom being "pro" either faction in this. The actions of both sides preclude me from supporting them.

If I'm for any mob, it's the kids and non-combatants copping the brunt of hostilities.

Yes, it's the only viable position

False binaries. White hat and black hat. Which side are you on? You are either with us or you're with the terrorists. It's moral absolutism, good versus evil, and it seems so very alluring.

In reality there is always nuance.

Having said that, I think the evidence of the real world - not some sort of abstract concept of evil - allows me to condemn Hamas and its ideals and practices with very little equivocation. There is no need to concoct stories about beheaded babies or utterly oversimplified phrases like "Hamas is ISIS". The raw facts are enough on their own without the despicable (Squid) games played by the likes of Netanyahu.

And it doesn't matter how extreme the Israeli reaction is, subsequent to this reality coming about. Hamas is what it is, it did what it did, there's no reason, as things stand, to believe it will change.

We can also look at the raw facts of the Palestinian children killed by Israeli bombs, starved and diseased by Israeli blockades and military aggression. And then we end up with the situation where being "pro" either faction is, as you say, unfathomable.

One of the people I follow on Mastodon has posted a couple of toots that pretty well match my perspective.

https://kolektiva.social/@HeavenlyPossu ... 5789737204

https://kolektiva.social/@HeavenlyPossu ... 8422181358

Both aggressors are the enemy of the people.

MOD NOTE: This poster was warned about providing sources for their claims. Readers are advised to fact-check.

joele wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:45 am

joele wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:16 pmI think it best to let them bring it up if they choose to, as you have said there is a certain social/community cost for offering how they feel (if not towing the line) that I think prevents many from feeling comfortable to talk about how they feel, which is probably rather complex to say the least..

Been thinking a lot about this, and realised something.. There is actually plenty to criticise in the leadership on both sides of this conflict, but I am more afraid of the backlash in Australia for criticising the actions of Hamas, Fatah, historically Arafat etc than I am of criticising the Israeli government.. Just thought that worth mentioning in the interest of being open on this topic..

The AUS government funds the ECAJ which propagates false propaganda and they do not appear to be at risk.
I am more afraid of my conscience. Fatah shot a 12 year old Paleatinian girl the other day. Fatah is practically in support of the occupation in that way.
Hamas yes they have committed acts of terrorism but nothing on the scale of the IDF. Its a category error to imagine some false equivalency. Yes also they have brutally punishtes those who opposed them with public executions and the like against those accused of collaboration. But it does have to be remembered that when Israel conducts assassinations based on such information they regularly kill whole families and extended families and their politicians rejoice on getting their man.
It is said and properly said that evil fights evil. But the scale of evil on the part of Israel in killing civilians is beyond humanity and amounts to industrialised slaughter

MOD NOTE: This poster was warned about providing sources for their claims. Readers are advised to fact-check.


Reductio ad Hitlerium may be tiresome but that is at least within the real of human experience. Israel political leaders on the other hand accuse Palestinians of being human beasts.
Further Israel abuses Reductio ad Hitlerium to hide the fact that the creation, maintenance expansion justification and defence of the Jewish state is an reactive mirror of the Holocaust
Gaza in thirty five days has seen perhaps two days of Aushwitz at full capacity.

Mod Voice: Sources, @wadaye ?

Wasn't this made clear already?

We'll see you in 24 hours.