wadaye wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 8:49 pmWell it turns out that Israeli defence force claims to have killed 1500 militants inside Israel so that can't be included in the 950 reported from Gaza itself.
wadaye wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 8:49 pmThat means the civilian deaths within Gaza from this war alone are now comparable to those of Israel.
Whilst I have no doubt that will probably be the result, or worse, just because the 1500 militants who were killed in israel are not included in the deaths in gaza number, that does not mean the deaths in Gaza are 100% civilian..
Not arguing that the tragedy you are assuming will not occur, but that just doesn't logically track.
But the logic I was working on was the parameters of reporting which report simply deaths in Israel and deaths in Gaza and West Bank.
wadaye wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:00 pm
But the logic I was working on was the parameters of reporting which report simply deaths in Israel and deaths in Gaza and West Bank.
I am referring to Al Jazeera here
The numbers I have seen pretty consistently across different news sources are deaths of Israelis (which includes Jewish Israeli civilians, arab-muslims-palestianian Israeli civilians, foreign national civilians and a minority of Israeli soldiers) which is now 1200. Deaths in Gaza which last I saw was reported as being at 960 and separately the 1500 militants in Israel that Israel claims to have killed (a number authorities in Gaza have no way of confirming).
I just don't see how Gaza reporting deaths in Gaza would imply they are 100% civilians because they didn't include the militants the IDF claimed to kill in Israel as having been killed in Gaza..
Anyway it is ALL tragic IMHO, I was just a bit frustrated with the leap made. The whole thing is fucked and I don't really want to add to the conflict arguing about it, just struggling with broad brushes and assumptions on both 'sides' of this bloody thing as I normally do with this conflict.
"Now this is the command: Do to the doer to make him do." - The Eloquent Peasant (2040–1650 BCE)
“Religion the protector of the well fed and consoler of the hungry.” - Mikhail Bakunin
wadaye wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:00 pm
But the logic I was working on was the parameters of reporting which report simply deaths in Israel and deaths in Gaza and West Bank.
I am referring to Al Jazeera here
The numbers I have seen pretty consistently across different news sources are deaths of Israelis (which includes Jewish Israeli civilians, arab-muslims-palestianian Israeli civilians, foreign national civilians and a minority of Israeli soldiers) which is now 1200. Deaths in Gaza which last I saw was reported as being at 960 and separately the 1500 militants in Israel that Israel claims to have killed (a number authorities in Gaza have no way of confirming).
I just don't see how Gaza reporting deaths in Gaza would imply they are 100% civilians because they didn't include the militants in Israel as having been killed in Gaza..
Anyway it is ALL tragic IMHO, I was just a bit frustrated with the leap made. The whole thing is fucked and I don't really want to add to the conflict arguing about it, just struggling with broad brushes and assumptions on both 'sides' of this bloody thing as I normally do with this conflict.
Bu that is the Red herring I didn't claim that at all.
wadaye wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:29 pmLets call it for what it is. Cold blooded massacre by Hamas and cold blooded massacre by IDF. Equal no less.
There is of course history too
Aye, results are all the same, dead mothers, fathers, sons, daughters etc and a whole lot of hatred on all sides, strongly tied up with religious fantasies and history..
"Now this is the command: Do to the doer to make him do." - The Eloquent Peasant (2040–1650 BCE)
“Religion the protector of the well fed and consoler of the hungry.” - Mikhail Bakunin
it’s now clear their final details were known only to a handful of Hamas planners, chief among them Mohammed Deif.
Hamas’s military commander is
a survivor of seven Israeli assassination attempts;
a widower (his wife, son and daughter were killed in an Israeli airstrike in 2014);
Israel’s most wanted man; and
thought still to be at large, in a wheelchair, in the network of tunnels beneath Gaza City from which the attacks were launched.
A statement issued by Hamas claims Deif spent two years planning the attacks. A recorded statement by Deif himself says they were in response to an “orgy of occupation” of Palestinian lands by Israel, with western support and “international silence”.
Just as Israel engages in vengeance so does Hamas. Innocents are always the victims.
One can say the actions in each case are dehumanising but in fact in both cases they are human responses.
They are inboth cases the choice if evil, but evil is a real owned by human beings. Let us hope peace also is.
Very Serious People are learning that you can't stop reality, from being real; you can tell everyone that if they disagree with you, you're a terrorist - but you can't make folks on the ground believe that.
I have nothing insightful to say about the conflict; but watching the opinion management of this situation here in the West has been VERY instructive.
There is a massive disconnect between what our leaders say, and what most of us feel. That is unsustainable.
Greedy fuckers cannot self-regulate.
Prove me wrong.
Wow that is very insightful.
It turns out that the designation terrorist in order to facilitate assassination attempts which kill innocents by design and otherwise fail anyway, causes, terrorism which kills innocents leading to terrorist assassination attempts which kill innocents by design.
Its almost like an accelerant.
Last edited by wadaye on Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Another thing is that we should be very skeptical of our spy, intelligence organisations.These are the ones who tekl government what to think and which in turn tell us what to think through such narratives.
All western intelligence failed not on a momentary basis not even on a historical basis but precisely because of its ahistorical basis
