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Re: Climate Change
Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:18 am
by Irrev-Black
pipbarber wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:13 am(SNIP)
What happened to our imaginations?
Rupert told us how to dream.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:11 am
by joele
This response is more to them (screaming into the wind) than to you pip, but anyway here goes.
pipbarber wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:13 amOne interesting point that comes through is the idea that if we can't maintain our current economic systems and lifestyles it's the end of the world! It would be better if nothing existed rather than not be able to use exactly as much electricity and natural gas as i damn well please.
So they are into making perfect the enemy of good..
"If I have to settle for 70% of the prosperity I have now that's not enough I would prefer to end up having 0% and doom the rest of the human race too because only I matter in this present point in time"..
Obviously they probably wouldn't admit the end of that sentence above, but the level of selfishness is brutal..
Actually reminds me of some stuff I have been reading lately from a number of psychologists. We all know about toxic masculinity but there is another huge issue affecting us (especially on these environmental issues but also within relationships) which is toxic individualism. It is a by product of our neo-liberal, Ayn Rand, economic/political system at the moment.. Only how I am treated matters, how I treat others is irrelevant, very one directional and purely selfish.
It is probably true though, to say that if we are to rapidly reduce emissions we need to radically change our economic systems. People are scared of that, i guess, with some justification. But really it's that or death by a thousand catastrophes.
Exactly..
Re: Climate Change
Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 1:54 pm
by wadaye
People don't really understand what global warming is. Higher increase in temperature at the poles because of the higher effect of the insulation gradient there, will inevitably reduce heat evacuation from the equatorial and temperate regions;
I think this thread (continued from the previous) gets at the issues. A health article from BBC explains
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-66249805 that linear temperature increases have exponential impacts crossing thresh-holds of survivability. And of course apart from the fact that a creature including humans only needs to die once to be ultimately affected, the ecosystem impacts and biological costs are enormous all the way through.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 1:56 pm
by wadaye
People [i.e. decision makers, media, and ultimately voters] don't really understand what global warming is. Higher increase in temperature at the poles because of the higher effect of the insulation gradient there, will inevitably reduce heat evacuation from the equatorial and temperate regions;
I think this thread (continued from the previous) gets at the issues. A health article from BBC explains
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-66249805 that linear temperature increases have exponential impacts crossing thresh-holds of survivability. And of course apart from the fact that a creature including humans only needs to die once to be ultimately affected, the ecosystem impacts and biological costs are enormous all the way through.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 2:06 pm
by wadaye
It appears that thermodynamics, that which seemed esoteric while at school, is ultimately the thing to get to know
Re: Climate Change
Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 2:13 pm
by Irrev-Black
wadaye wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 2:06 pm
It appears that thermodynamics, that which seemed esoteric while at school, is ultimately the thing to get to know
As long as one is totally aware, like Malcolm (sound of cuckoo clock) Roberts, that CO2 isn't a factor.
https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/senato ... ce-denial/
Re: Climate Change
Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 4:44 pm
by stylofone
joele wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:11 amWe all know about toxic masculinity but there is another huge issue affecting us (especially on these environmental issues but also within relationships) which is toxic individualism. It is a by product of our neo-liberal, Ayn Rand, economic/political system at the moment.. Only how I am treated matters, how I treat others is irrelevant, very one directional and purely selfish.
Yes, I think this is a key factor not only in climate but also in things like Trumpism and the plague of conspiracy theories be are suffering at the moment. They satisfy a certain desire for self-aggrandisement. It's there on the left too. In fact greenwashed consumerism is a great example, where you buy a $70,000 EV and pretend that you have solved the problem.
I don't know enough about things like conditioning, habit-forming behaviour, mimicry and conformism, and how these can be assessed scientifically, but I'm pretty sure that a century of advertising and marketing aimed at exploiting and stimulating animal desires of hunger and sex, with the added novelty and intensity of internet/mobile/social media personalisation, have brought us to this point.
The religious factor is there too. I can't remember where I heard it, but I remember a historical assessment of post-war Japan, where the Americans removed a plank of Japanese religious belief by requiring the Emperor to renounce his divinity, and replaced it with a new religion of consumerism.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:38 pm
by wadaye
Re: Climate Change
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:48 am
by wadaye
Sam hall and the
The busy workers handbook to the apocalypse is 2.5 hours compelling listening podcast by Michael Dowd
Re: Climate Change
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:50 am
by stylofone
wadaye wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:38 pm
Refreshing realism
That article has an interesting example of what I call "the good news clause", where you report terrible climate and emissions news, and then say "but the good news is if we do X, Y and Z we can still fix it". In this case, the deadline for X, Y and Z was 2020, and the "rough ride" as a result of this deadline being missed is happening right now.
There have been countless warnings by scientists in the past two decades telling us what is required to avert disaster, and none of those actions have been taken. If you look at the current warnings being issued, and the assessments of what needs to be done, it is clear that the plans for governments already fall short... and those plans include things like non-existent offsets and CCS.
One of the chief ‘moodsplainers’ is the famous author Rebecca Solnit. When her ‘doom-shaming’ was challenged on her Facebook page, she defended her position with the claim that scientists tell her it’s not too late (presumably for our modern societies). She referenced the climatologist Michael Mann as evidence for her claim (see the screenshot). Known to be a prolific author, he was in good company when declaring in 2009 that if emissions did not peak by 2020 and consistently decline, then humanity would be in for the roughest of rides, in a situation where various feedbacks would likely amplify changes. As you may already know, emissions went up last year. But the 2023 version of Professor Mann appears to have forgotten his past assessment. Clearly, hope springs eternal. Especially if wishful thinking is a non-negotiable aspect of one’s identity, worldview and status. The suggestion by Solnit that all scientists agree must ignore the hundreds of scientists and scholars who have publicly disagreed that it is not too late to transition to a sustainable form of our current societies, including leading climatologists Professor Gesa Weyhenmeyer and Professor Will Steffen.
Also in Jem Bendell's article is a link to a much more hardcore view on the climate catastrophe.
Link to article - OG code below seems faulty??
Hope is no longer the appropriate response, instead a steadfast courage is needed to face a grim future, and a determination to do the next right thing, come what may. What else is there? All we can do is get up each day and adapt to the changing circumstances as best we can, attempting to stay healthy, well adjusted, mentally stable and able to contribute to disaster risk reduction in whatever ways are available to us.
This is the Doomster Way, the Way of Acceptance. We are in #collapse and if we refuse to accept this we risk making a bad situation much worse.
The massive new infrastructure projects of the so-called green energy transition will be underwater, burnt or lack the resources or labour to even complete.
Instead, if we accept the reality of climate breakdown, we have a chance to make amends and save as much of the natural world as possible while we still have a relatively intact society with the social order to get things done. Think orderly descent — powering down the global enterprise.