MOD NOTE: This poster was warned about providing sources for their claims. Readers are advised to fact-check.
This follows on from my response to the gaslighting in the accusation that cease fire pro Palestinian rights protests are all deranged anti-semites.
2 of 3.
joele wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 12:34 pm
.... Despite being an atheist I still have experience so called antisemitism (don't like that word) both from Arab Australians and White Australians many times, as they see Judaism as a race, as you alluded to earlier in this thread (which I took issue with).
For all practical purposes it is the same thing, since race as a thing does not actually exist. Let us examine what then Judaism is. Firstly and most fundamentally it is not Palestinian, though Jews in Palestine used to consider themselves Palestinian Jews. Hence a Jewish state so defined and claimed has a fatal intolerance of Palestinians. So the Palestinian race, though tolerated in small survivor numbers to some extent in Israel, are definitely not welcome in their own indigenous lands. Yes, Israel is a racially defined state.
Yes when i feel safer in a forum to criticise leaders on both sides, as LEADERS on both sides of this have for decades undermined moments of progress towards peace, while increasing their own personal wealth or power in the process.
You mentioned that you do bring up the issue in your personal life, and though that's your business and I don't mean to intrude, you did first mention it, now say that you don't.
As for safety in speaking about it, there are reports that Palestinians are arrested (or worse) for making the wrong posts on social media.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/05/midd ... index.html
We all know the deadly implications of the west bank raids at the moment. So I would agree with your comment that there is no risk to you personally for criticising Israel, but that the opposite applies of course for Palestinians.
Though, I do agree since the left was decimated in Israel in part for repeatedly failing to make peace, the far right has taken over and they do not want peace at all.
The left and right are two arms of the same creature. We need to divorce ourselves from these racial states including Australia, the UK, the US, and Israel, which are built on genocide.
There is also plenty of sloppy claims from you that I have wanted to respond to in this thread and have left because what's the fucken point? us arguing here does not improve anything for anyone!
gee thanks.
wadaye wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:52 amFurther, the claim to not fear criticising the Israeli government or backlash for doing so because you know they don’t do anything to their own, or white people, is a claim that Israeli government and their supporters are somehow better than Hamas.
No I am talking about the supporters here, in Australia, and my experience of their conflating of Israel and Jews.
What do you mean by "the supporters"? Supporters of Palestinians? Supporters of their right to exist perhaps? Supporters of what exactly are you talking about?
I agree that there are anti-semitic fuckwits who do conflate Isreal and Jews. It has to be said that Israel as a nation tries to get that past the keeper too and confuse everyone. A few brave souls continue to disprove this myth but pay a heavy price for it, such as Mordechai Vanunu, Ilan Pappe, Prof Norman Finkelstein, Miko Peled,
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/the-b ... -one-state, Noam Chomsky, the late Vivian Silver,
https://www.jta.org/2023/11/13/israel/v ... s-massacre
Of the rise in antisemetic attacks worldwide, my experience of the rise of "anti semetism" from white kids at an Anglican high school here whenever this kicked off.
Sorry that's a claim/statement which is not properly defined. Yes there was bullying at school here in Australia. A lot of people put up with it. Particularly Aboriginals.
In my experience of life, most of the talk about "the Jews" comes from the Church's insistence on the propagation of the existence of such a category as real. Such language is as racist as speaking of The Aborigines or The Arabs as if they were simply a homogonous non-thinking machine.
Of the rise of sloppy anti semetic language in broader society.
Perhaps I move in the wrong circles but I never let a person speak about "the jews" without insisting that they stop it.
Of attacks on the progressive synagogue my father volunteered at every time this conflict made the news, despite most there being non or even anti Zionist including the rabbi, but who cares, Jews even in Australia are the problem and need to be addressed and to justify the actions of the Israeli government.
What do you mean "who cares". Is your accusation against me? Its unclear what you are saying.
gee thanks.
wadaye wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:52 amFurther, the claim to not fear criticising the Israeli government or backlash for doing so because you know they don’t do anything to their own, or white people, is a claim that Israeli government and their supporters are somehow better than Hamas.
No I am talking about the supporters here, in Australia, and my experience of their conflating of Israel and Jews.
What do you mean by "the supporters"? Supporters of Palestinians? Supporters of their right to exist perhaps? Supporters of what exactly are you talking about?
I agree that there are anti-semitic fuckwits who do conflate Isreal and Jews. It has to be said that Israel as a nation tries to get that past the keeper too and confuse everyone. A few brave souls continue to disprove this myth but pay a heavy price for it, such as Mordechai Vanunu, Ilan Pappe, Prof Norman Finkelstein, Miko Peled,
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/the-b ... -one-state, Noam Chomsky, the late Vivian Silver,
https://www.jta.org/2023/11/13/israel/v ... s-massacre
Of the rise in antisemetic attacks worldwide, my experience of the rise of "anti semetism" from white kids at an Anglican high school here whenever this kicked off.
Sorry that's a claim/statement which is not properly defined. Yes there was bullying at school here in Australia. A lot of people put up with it. Particularly Aboriginals.
In my experience of life, most of the talk about "the Jews" comes from the Church's insistence on the propagation of the existence of such a category as real. Such language is as racist as speaking of The Aborigines or The Arabs as if they were simply a homogonous non-thinking machine.
Of the rise of sloppy anti semetic language in broader society.
Perhaps I move in the wrong circles but I never let a person speak about "the jews" without insisting that they stop it.
Of attacks on the progressive synagogue my father volunteered at every time this conflict made the news, despite most there being non or even anti Zionist including the rabbi, but who cares, Jews even in Australia are the problem and need to be addressed and to justify the actions of the Israeli government.
What do you mean "who cares". Is your accusation against me? Its unclear what you are saying.
Bit like your post earlier when you asked how to approach jews to discuss thus topic.. Why? I left that question out but why? To berate them? Are jews here responsible for the actions of the israeli government? Are they responsible in any way that you feel the need to address them?
Yes the accusation of anti-semitism. Better to get it out there. By the way, don't straw man me, you don't know me. I have several Jewish friends whom I haven't asked about the question. I don't appreciate your accusations. They are not members of this forum so I have not engaged with them on the issue. You have engaged with the issue, so I asked. First you answered as the question was reasonable. Now you accuse me of anti-semitism for my question. Thanks for that.
That article which you called special pleading (still waiting for justification of that term BTW) was a good reflection of experiences I have had with friends that I have had to walk away from for my own sake as many still have this anti Jewish bigotry just below the surface that tends to show its face at these moments.
At least I know what I am dealing with now, a straight out accusation of anti-semitism.
In the midst of the genocide, its all about you, and your ability to know me and the supposed anti-Jewish bigotry. I suppose that's what comes when someone criticises Israel for killing well over 5000 kids in response to the 33 Israeli killed in the Hamas attacks as per the United Nations
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostili ... -update-43
So that's the colonial ratio in extremis, approaching 200:1 for child killings. That's actually quite normal for the history of Israel vs Hamas and Israel viz Palestine. Pointing out these facts is of course in this strange universe now deemed as anti-semitic.
wadaye wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:52 amBut the facts of the matter, that there is no evidence any babies were really beheaded by Hamas,
Do you expect video footage to be released,
[/quote]
Yes. If there is evidence, present it. Its the modern age and evidence is required.
I have listened to interviews with reporters who saw the, not publicly released, footage that Israel invited reporters to see.
The gullibility of people never ceases to amaze me. I deal with atrocity videos unfortunately. If Israel had such a thing they would release it. Also the Israeli's bombed the hell out of everything on 7th October onwards and killed their own civilians so the states of their bodies, like those Palestinians atomised and beheaded in their bombing raids, are in similar condition.
It is the Israeli former soldier and peace activist Miko Peled who told Al Jazeera's The Bottom Line in his recent interview that what do they think happens to a child when it is blown up with a bomb dropped from an aircraft, the child is beheaded. The hands might be clean but the conscience is not.
They spoke of murdering of kids in front of their parents before the parents were also killed. They spoke of a Thai worker being beheaded with a gardening tool, which apparently took a gruesomely long time to finish, etc etc. But Hamas themselves are still claiming no civilians were killed.
I have not seen a quote that Hamas claimed that. If you have a reference, then the standards I am told in this thread are to post the linkage to it. Otherwise its just an unsubstantiated claim.
thanks for the link. I can see that his claims don't match reality. But then, speaking of the children, as the claim was about babies, Israel's 200:1 overkill ratio is clear for the world to see
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/is ... r-AA1k9rOeis when quantity has a quality all of its own. It takes on a wholesale slaughter just like other genocides. And to reiterate that to conduct a genocide by military army, they don't kill every civilian every day. They keep them in the cage for years or decades. Then one day, quickly or slowly all at once or bit by bit, kill them. Here its been bit by bit for a very very long time. Its ramping up exponentially now, especially by denial of food, water, medicine, and waiting for them to die by starvation and disease, to suffer life long kidney injury, to kill enough kids that they say enough and, run the gauntlet of bombs, snipers and minefields and try to brave the border wall and hope the Egyptian army will not kill them to seek refuge outside of the brutal range of the IDF.
wadaye wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:52 amHamas is evil according to your own logic, therefore assassinations are justified, even though they are usually botched and kill the families and others happening to be around those sought to be killed.
Where did I say any of that? I oppose those indiscriminate drone attacks just like I opposed it when it came to light Obama did it so many times.
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When on 11th November 2023 you liked the post condemning Hamas with no historical context that it is an organisation which has arisen from the ghetto under siege, after Israel's killings of thousands of civilians. To condemn Hamas in the face of the Israeli genocide is to condone the slaughter.
if there is to be a condemnation of Hamas the condemnation of Israel has to be 20 times more by the numbers, and not merely words, but deeds. Because Israel relies on your condemnation of Hamas to provide moral cover to its attempt to carry out the execution the result of the condemnation.
For the record, Hamas was condemned not only by Israel, but also by the west, for decades. And the condemnation meant the carrying out of attempted assassinations with civilian kill ratios of 50:1. In those circumstances I think that the Israeli Government, and their western backers should be morally condemned.
In your world view do Palestinians have a right to resist genocide?
