Israel

[Irrev-Black]

Another thing is that we should be very skeptical of our spy, intelligence organisations.These are the ones who tekl government what to think and which in turn tell us what to think through such narratives.
All western intelligence failed not on a momentary basis not even on a historical basis but precisely because of its ahistorical basis

An agency that finds stuff out, then decides how much of that to tell GovCo (who then decide what the populace will/won't be told)?

Add in actions designed to further their own perceived importance, a few omissions (remember the shenanigans before the Timor Leste gas/oil deals?) and a bit of proactive bastardry...

Sure, I'd trust them. About as much as a rice-paper fire guard.

[stylofone]

This very old conflict seems to have changed in significant ways. For a start it's usually a massively higher death toll on the Palestinian side, but the sheer numbers of Israeli dead and the scale of the attack are different this time.

Then there's the whole misinformation machine, with Musk actively promoting channels which distort reality. It was bad enough when the platforms were exploited by organised disinformation from outside, but with the owners pushing for it to happen it's so much worse.

The east-west divide has become absurd and chaotic. You get Russia on the side of Iran/Syria and the Palestinians, the US on the side of Israel. Trump expressed rabid pro-Israel sentiments, but the MAGA branch is also weirdly supportive of Russia, and increasingly embracing anti-semitism in its central philosophy. Russia has both anti-semitism and Islamophobia in its historical narrative. Neo-nazis emerging from the so-called "alt-right" movement in the US and elsewhere admire Israel as an "ethno-state" and want to establish for white Americans what Netanyahu wants for Jews. But the same far-right nutters chant anti-Semitic garbage as they march with their torches and pitchforks.

Other aspects of it remain unchanged, but the scale is going to be disastrously higher now for those whose lives are on the line.

[Irrev-Black]

Lots of people are getting killed. Most of them are not combatants, and the supposed rules of combat aren't getting a look in here.

And while I'm ranting, fuck those christians who are gleefully rubbing their hands and just thinking of the day their white Jeebus takes them to heaven after all this armageddon shit.

And here's one somebody prepared earlier, via birdsite.

Hemant Mehta
@hemantmehta
Christian "prophetess" Kat Kerr says all the Israeli and "Hamas babies" killed in the war will be okay.

"Every single baby goes to Heaven, gets a chance to receive Christ—and they all want to!"
9:10 AM · Oct 12, 2023

[joele]

The east-west divide has become absurd and chaotic. You get Russia on the side of Iran/Syria and the Palestinians, the US on the side of Israel.

Yeah and interestingly (maybe not so) and I hope this doesn't sound conspiratorial, but we know Russia supplies arms to Iran and Iran supplies Gaza, so how involved was Putin in this? Certainly seems to work in Putin's favour providing a needed distraction from the Ukraine war.. There were also Russian state sponsored hackers (killnet) attacking Israeli infrastructure as the latest conflict started. At the very least I can imagine he is well pleased..

Neo-nazis emerging from the so-called "alt-right" movement in the US and elsewhere admire Israel as an "ethno-state" and want to establish for white Americans what Netanyahu wants for Jews.

They provide a western version/template of one, we have plenty of ethno states in Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, UAE etc but not another 'western' one.

The 'problem' I see for/with Israel is like you said in that "Voice" thread to your neighbour (I think it was) about indigenous people not having a country B, others have some backup plan but they don't. i.e. Italians can escape Australia back to Italy or English the same (I think I am not misquoting you?)... This is the problem for Israel/Jews and the ethno state status, they are 21% Arab (mostly Muslim and self identified as Palestinian) but they are careful to want to keep the majority Jewish. The reason is exactly as per your example, predominately Christian and Muslim countries/empires/etc (at different times) have persecuted and killed them en mass. They wanted exactly what you described, a fall back plan so if there are new pogroms (which there always was) they have their own place that won't close it's borders hence the right of return laws for all Jews (with very broad definitions of Jewish) and the perceived need to keep a 'Jewish' majority..

Please understand, in no way am I saying this in any way justifies any of the abysmal treatment of any other group, but it helps to understand the driving psychological factors. The intense fear of the other (mainly) Abrahamic religions is what drives that desire for an ethno state. It is the repeated historical reinforcement that countries can go through generations of welcoming coexistence then turn genocidal that drives a perceived need to have somewhere to flee to. It didn't help the perception of that need that Germany basically told the world at the Evian conference what was going to happen and offered to pay for safe passage out and the world said, as Australia did, "we are not desirest of importing Europe's ethnic problem (jews)" and closed their borders. It's centuries of generational trauma.. It is what always did my head in growing up 'in' Judaism, as I could understand the generational trauma (even feel it too) but couldn't stand the lack of awareness they are creating it for another group. It didn't help that at the time of the worst example of a pogrom that same group was allied with the perpetrator of said trauma, which some love to remind themselves (totally no excuse, just pointing out the mindset).

[joele]

Bernie Sanders released a decent statement, probably the best that I have seen from a politician on this subject..

Hamas’ terrorist assault on Israel will have horrific short- and long-term consequences.

As a result of this attack, thousands of Israelis and Palestinians – including many women and children – have been killed and injured. That toll will rise. The gunning down of young Israelis at a music festival is an image the world will not soon forget.

Longer term, this attack is a major setback for any hope of peace and reconciliation in the region – and justice for the Palestinian people. For years, people of good will throughout the world, including some brave Israelis, have struggled against the blockade of Gaza, the daily humiliations of occupation in the West Bank, and the horrendous living conditions faced by so many Palestinians. For many, it is no secret that Gaza has been an open-air prison, with millions of people struggling to secure basic necessities. Hamas’ terrorism will make it much more difficult to address that tragic reality and will embolden extremists on both sides, continuing the cycle of violence.

Right now, the international community must focus on reducing humanitarian suffering and protecting innocent people on both sides of this conflict. The targeting of civilians is a war crime, no matter who does it. Israel’s blanket denial of food, water, and other necessities to Gaza is a serious violation of international law and will do nothing but harm innocent civilians. The United States has rightly offered solidarity and support to Israel in responding to Hamas’ attack. But we must also insist on restraint from Israeli forces attacking Gaza and work to secure UN humanitarian access. Let us not forget that half of the two million people in Gaza are children. Children and innocent people do not deserve to be punished for the acts of Hamas.

[joele]

Egypt is moving to avert a mass exodus from the Gaza Strip into its Sinai Peninsula, as Israeli bombardment halted crossings at the main exit point from the Palestinian enclave on Tuesday, Gaza officials and Egyptian security sources said.

Israel's assault on Gaza has caused alarm in Egypt, which has urged Israel to provide safe passage for civilians from the enclave rather than encouraging them to flee southwest towards Sinai, two Egyptian security sources said.

Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi said on Tuesday that the escalation in Gaza was "highly dangerous" and that Egypt was pursuing a negotiated solution to the violence with regional and international partners.

Egypt would not allow the issue to be settled at the expense of others, Sisi said in comments reported by state news agency MENA, an apparent reference to the risk that Palestinians could be pushed into Sinai.

The Rafah border crossing remained shut on Wednesday morning, after Egyptian military planes conducted flights nearby overnight, security sources said. The military has also taken up new positions close to the border, running patrols to monitor the area, said Ahmed Salem of the Sinai Foundation for Human Rights.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 023-10-10/

[stylofone]

Italians can escape Australia back to Italy or English the same (I think I am not misquoting you?)

No, not misquoted, although since then I've thought of better arguments to counter the erroneous and dishonest "voice of division" proponents. Also, thanks for your perspective on Israel, it tallies with a lot of the things I've read and heard over the years. It also prompted me to read a bit more about the history, how the British Mandate came about after WW1, the League of Nations, the messy end of the Ottoman Empire... but after a while history makes me dizzy, I had to stop!

[wadaye]

Compare that situation with Darfur too and the genocides just witbessed in ethiopia. Add in Burma too. And many others. The myth of progress has to be discarded. We need rather to do pur best for the oppressed really to throw in our lot with them.i am talking about the innocent oppressed. But then also realise that the oppressed will always fight back too. Ubfortunately they also fight not only upwards but also downwards and sideways

[wadaye]

Having directed people to Tortois news which has had some incredible investigative journalism, to see the nonsensical whitewhashibg out of Palestinians by the same news agency is saddening. Anyway here is their false narrative, that first there was the Holocaust, second there was Israel, and third there were these strange creatures called Palestinians but also called Hamas, who just didn't like that, so Israel has to fight them

Why Israel Fights
History. Founded in 1948 after the murder of six million Jews in World War Two, Israel has existed ever since in a state of conflict with its neighbours and the Palestinian people over history, borders, land and water. This conflict has flared up repeatedly, including in

https://newsroom.tortoisemedia.com/
Notethe false use of the word neighbours

[wadaye]

Is Gaza also a picture of the future, as in the days of Pol Pot where living in the city was the ground or reason for being killed.
...
The cutting off of water food and any kind of supplies is designed to kill children and vulnerable first